What is the right picture of our country's reality that we wish to create?

We need to work on envisioning the GOAL that this group is collaboratively working for.

Once we set the Goal, we can then define a few non-negotiable factors which will define if the Goal is reached or not. Absence of any of these factors will tell us that there is a gap between the current reality and desired reality that we wish to create.

The goal as enshrined in our constitution is:

secure to all its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political;
LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;
EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all
FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;


This is too broad. And overly idealistic. Need to be a bit more realistic and pragmatic and set up goals to effect change in the status quo, and at the level of localities/panchayats/any small unit one can think of. This is where we can organize better, at the grassroots and effect some real change. Just discussing things theoretically etc is not really going to change much, imho.


What do you suggest? Everything here is up for discussion and vote!

Justice, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity are all individual centric. There is no reference to the society that is created by individuals coming together and obligations of individuals to continuously improve the society.

Let me take an analogy from Biology. Amoebae are single cell orgnanism. They are capable of survival and ensuring continuation of their specie.

Compared to Amoeba, human beings are made up of different cell types - brain, bone, heart, lungs, muscles, blood, and still more. They come together to create an organism called human. Each of them are specialists in their job and deliver that relentless their contribution to keep human alive. Brain cell cannot say, I am not interested in my role and I want to exchange. Heart cells cannot be complaining that they have to keep on working from birth to death without rest. Any cell which do not follow their assigned role are called CANCER.

When we want a harmonious, productive and progressive society, then there will be division of labour and role. The notion of EQUALITY, LIBERTY have the potential to disturb the harmony of the society and deliver acrimonious, unproductive and regressive society.

Nowhere in the world, there is no army, no bankers, no teachers, no workers, Every society needs different roles to ensure that it is productive and progressive.

GOAL has to be at the system level not at the parts of the system level.


I don’t think comparing a society to human body is going to be very useful because it will give you totally different conclusions. I think harmony and productivity without liberty is a trait of dictatorship - see China, their goal is harmony and productivity without liberty. I don’t think we should aim that.

Human bodies have a lot in common, but societies are always evolving and change from generation and geography. There are some common ideals, but when you go into details, there will be so many differences.

Please share an alternate example of a System made up of parts which interact with each other. No part in isolation can survive, it needs other parts and their interactions make the system function.

Rejecting an analogy outright by showing unrelated specific example of China does not give an impression of open discussion.

I was responding to this part specifically. If you look around the world, you will see democracies cherish these values. Look at our own country, we are a federal republic, with each state having rights to control specific aspects of day to day life. So you will see different laws and systems in different states when it comes to things listed in the state list - like law and order.

Game Theory and Prisoner’s Dilemma are two fascinating topics to study to understand how individual parts of a larger thing “coordinate” for the greater good.

Veritasium has a very good video on the subject to get you started here.

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